Read an article from a Christian Berg that reports that insiders within the PGC are saying that Carl Roe, at the upcoming January meeting, will support making some changes to the concurrent deer rifle season in order to gather support for a license increase.

His proposal includes limiting the first week of rifle to bucks only followed by 1 week of concurrent buck/doe.  Seems like a compromise is in the wind??

Doc, did ya hear anything about this??  

If it does happen it will be interesting to see what happens with antlerless allocations.  They should go up dramatically if there are going to affectively cut antlerless season in half and remove a huge high harvest day.  

--Last edited by dpms on 2008-01-08 12:17:42 --

I actually kind of like that idea.  It would probabley increase the buck harvest slightly, and it would generater more excitement (hunter participation) in the second week.

   The doe tags would have to be increased to keep the harvest the same, which would be better for out of state hunters that haven't been able to get doe tags the last so many years.  dd

Here's what I know -----


The goals of the deer management plan have NOT changed...       

The proposed changes to these FOUR WMU's will give the PGC another "tool in the toolbox". ·      

The units were chosen because 2 of them (2G & 4B) have ongoing deer research in them,

2D is in the four-point area and 3C is a balance to other WMUs that are primarily public land. ·      

Antlerless harvest versus number of days of opportunity (season length) will be evaluated.       

Surveys of hunters will be done annually to address other aspects of the program.       

In the future, stakeholders may be able to have input into seasons by sharing whether they'd like more opportunity via time (two weeks or more season) or more people involved through perhaps more tags (shorter seasons)  

--Last edited by Dr Trout on 2008-01-09 14:59:05 --

Wow!!!  That is big news if it becomes reality.  Should be interesting to hear the discussion at the meeting in Harrisburg.

I am interested in how they are going to handle allocations in those units.  They should go up dramatically because of the season cut in half.  If they do not, and I have a feeling the allocations will not significantly increase in these units, then some other factors are coming into play.  

Looking forward to it.  Thanks for the insight on this, Doc.

What is your opinion on what will happen to allocations in those units if this happens?

This should also reinvigorate those that yearn for the "two" opening days of old as well.  Getting some more business for the locals that rely on hunters spending cash around these important days.

What do I think... well here goes

First..
I do not believe the "2" opening days will do much for local businesses..

I never bought into that as a sign of disgruntled or upset hunters in the first place.

The mom and pop stores are on a declne as a whole... they can't compete with the wal-marts.. K-marts.. McDonalds..Sheetz... etc.

Too many folks can no long afford to take all those extra days away from work to hunt as in the past.. many are almost required to work 6 days a week now...and trips to deer camp are shorter and shorter no matter what the deer population is.. I saw this first-hand at the local camps long before HR/AR started...

Guys were only staying the week-end before and the first two days of buck season..

and NOT returning for "doe season"... they stayed home and hunted for doe there...

I had the local woods pretty much to myself for "doe season" until the two week concurrent seasons started...
Even the non-residents did NOT come back for doe season...

Back then the doe to buck ratio was TERRIBLE for that very reason.. I was one of very few harvesting does year after year from the local woods until concurrent seasons..

All of which was why they did the concuurent season in the first place...

now they are starting to go back to seperate season..

I am, Not a happy camper about this decision.... PERIOD

After years of support for the deer program it appears

I and other supporters

are going to have some mud on our faces.... as the whiners appear to be winning the "let's keep the hunters happy"... instead of good deer managemnt policies....

history repeating itself AGAIN here in PA.....





As for the allocations..

I'll stick with the idea that the number of days of opportunity (length of season) is NOT near as important as the number of licenses issued.

That is the #1 controlling fact in the number of deer harvested..

Although I will be concerned about the possibilty of an increase in BB harvests with a shorter season.

I have talked to quite a few deer hunters who because of the two weeks really do try harder to ID a BB before pulling the trigger...

with a shorter doe season we may find the "if it's brown it's down" back as a main method of decision making about pulling the trigger on an antlerless deer.

I will say I am NOT real familar with all 4 of these WMUs..

but from those I talk to...
I can not see any real problems in 2G other than that seems to be a big area of "whiners"..and the "politicians" wanting the changes to the deer program BEFORE any license increase are from that area..

and that makes me fearful the PGC is starting to "give in" to those opposed to the deer program.... just like they have always done in the past... bow to pressure from politicians when it comes to deer hunting and paying too much attention to those "whining"....

I have not hunted the northcentral fo deer much, and I have heard the arguement alot about the concurrent season hurting the local businesses.  I believe what you witnessed as It seems that many of the hunters that I know that hunt the big woods focused on the first week then returned home and stayed for the last week and the seperate "doe" season of old.  But, as I said, I have no first hand experience with it either way.

The allocations issue will be interesting in these units.  I also believe that tags not season length determines the harvest. And that is what the PGC preaches. Why cut the season in half if the harvest is determined by allocations?  You may be right about the PGC caving. The PGC has been preaching about the science behind the allocations but that will be thrown out the door and the last 6 years will be all for not.

The three day season used to be a free for all.  Most just hunted the first Monday and many shot whatever they saw.  If this goes through, the first Saturday will be much the same.  Many hunters that did not harvest a buck yet will be filling tags fast.  If mature does then great, but the BB's will be hit hard as in the past.

This does seem like a reverse step and I believe it is too early to take steps like these.  I still wish that we could stay the course for at least 10 years and then evaluate the situation and take steps that are needed.

I hope that there is a detailed explanation of the need for these changes.  If not, then the PGC may lose some credibility from many of its supporters.  Myself included.  

--Last edited by dpms on 2008-01-09 23:05:31 --

AMEN !!!!!

Here's how the subject appears on the agenda for the PGC meeting later this month...

Quote :

Proposed changes to deer seasons in 4 WMU's:   A substantial change for the deer hunting seasons is a proposal to have a 5 day, antlered deer only season in WMUs 2D, 2G, 3C and 4B starting the Monday after Thanksgiving followed immediately by 7 days of concurrent, antlered and antlerless deer hunting. The proposal retains the 2-week (12 day) concurrent, antlered and antlerless season in the remaining 18 WMUs in the Commonwealth. The change to the four WMU's is to evaluate the impact of changed season length on hunter success rates for future use as a new management tool

Also, I would imagine that the first Saturday will see alot of additional bucks killed in those specific WMU's.  The first Saturday has always seen a pretty good buck harvest , but with the additional pressure of the first day of "doe" a rather large antlered harvest could be the result.  More so than anticipated.

I like these ideas ... less time to kill doe is a good thing. Deer need a break in many areas. Habitat I hunt in 2F is wild as anything and there is minimal deer and minimal sign. Acorns rot on the ground, new hemlock everywhere, most browse untouched.

I would like to know the organizations behind these ideas, who is their mouth piece and what are their affiliations with these organizations. Squeaky wheels and big mouths garner a lot of attention which may not be in the best interest of all concerned.

The PGC could help themselves a lot if they would publish or put on the web the background studies/work/rationale for the hunters to look at and digest concurrently with these proposals. Maybe there is merit to the changes but without knowing the rationale it is hard to support.

Oh I forgot, information is power.

leadslonger wrote ---

Quote :

Habitat I hunt in 2F is wild as anything and there is minimal deer and minimal sign.

Please explain more about what you are referring to as "wild as anything"

How large an area are you talking and what is a minimal number of deer and deer sign ???

If memory serves me correctly a lot of the deer studies that the PGC is and has conducted lately are in some of those 4 WMUs... and are available on their website...

Again we see the completely mis-leading statement about a shorter "doe season" will mean less "does" harvested..

This just is't and has NEVER proven to be true ---- Not before HR and as evidence in harvest numbers since HR not true now..
We still had a 2 week concrrent and the doe harvest continues to drop in the areas where the allocations were decreases by almost the exact same percentage...



Allocations..allocations..
allocations..... that's the #1 controlling factor for the "doe" harvest..

History has proven that to be true time and time again....  

--Last edited by Dr Trout on 2008-01-12 10:02:16 --

Tks Doc,

I'll start looking for the info. Usually I do the home work before I comment, however, since this is such a hot topic here and elsewhere I would have thought someone would have already posted a link to the studies..

There is a little satire in my reply Observer..

The info is on the PGC website..

BUT...

that being said... I have no idea how the PGC expects folks to find anything....

I constantly bitch to them that their site has to be the absolute worst at trying to search for something.... and as of yet nothing has been done to make it any easier..

That's why I try to post any E-mailed info I get on the board....

I just spent about 20 minutes trying to find a couple of those studies with NO success... I am no computer guru and maybe I really do not know how to "search" for something....

Just typing "deer studies" in the search box on their site got me NO WHERE !!

:

Thier website does suck..  I will agree with that.

There is no "break" for deer. Buck season runs right into doe season with no day off from hunting.

This is a reversal from many of the main points touted in having the concurrent season.
No longer can it be said by us;
1. "This is providing additional opportunites for families to hunt together for both buck and doe with one loss of work days and one loss of school days instead of two.
2. "This is reducing the stress that was put on the deer population by having two opening day situations.
With concurrent seasons, it is limited to only one opening day and followed by only two weeks and then it is done."
3. "This creates a better handle on monitoring harvests as antlerless and buck will be ongoing simultaneously and ends sooner."
4. "This provides a safety barrier against weather conditions that, in the past, prohibited hunters from travelling or getting out to hunt and forced extended antlerless season upon us.

I've got more, but basically this is tossing youth off the cliff for a short term gained and long term debt.

I say that in the sense that families will be forced to now choose buck or doe or making a second trip for doe at record high gas prices, same for using oil or propane, kerosene to heat camps and same for lodging.

The second trip could be made for Saturday only, but how many would drive 8 -10 hours round-trip to hunt only 8 or 9 hours for doe that have just come through 5 days of having hunters in the woods?

Youth and those on a time or money budget get sacrificed.  

--Last edited by bowbum on 2008-01-19 16:55:24 --

"allocations..... that's the #1 controlling factor for the "doe" harvest"

Doc, I agree with that. However, there can be zillions of tags but if hunters don't go to the woods to use them it don't matter.

Meaning that, in the current scheme, yes allocations determine the kill, but if hunters have to "return" 5 days later to use their tags then it has a different impact.

Also, when permits are up for sale, initial demand may drop because of the split seasons and those "numbers of tags" maybe far less than previous low numbers.

I'm betting big that one anticipated effect from this is a reduced the doe kill.