Looks like the PGC is at a crossroads.  Diminishing funds, decreasing hunter participation, animosity between hunters and the PGC, changing political climate. I could go on and on.

Now I am hearing in a public forum that several within the PGC are blaming hunters for the PGC's current position.  I have been a steadfast supporter of hunting and the PGC for 25 years.  I have always thought that they had the best interest of the states wildlife and hunters at heart.  Now to hear this BS.

Isn't it the responsibility of the PGC to set seasons, bag limits and allocations.  Are they not supposed to do this based on sound science.  That is precisely what they have been preaching since AR and HR.

All that hunters are guilty of is following the rules and regulations that were established by the PGC.  Nothing more.  To blame us for any reason is beyond belief.  Sure there are strong positions on deer management, lawsuits and intense lobbying efforts underway by many groups.

For the PGC to make decisions based on special interest and not what is best for the states wildlife is hard to swallow.  And to blame hunters to boot for pressing thier legislature to oppose any license increase until the deer herd is restored is baloney.  Special interest is everywhere.  To cave into it and then blame the special interest groups that twisted your arm.

I am fired up and my support is waivering at this moment.  It is time for the PGC to accept responsibility for it's own policies and not blame hunters for following bad policies.  Maybe they would not be in the position they are in if they haven't "caved" in the past to these special interest groups that evidently have great influence within the PGC.

Yes they are in need of a license increase.  Do I support a license increase? Yes!!  Do I think that they should throw the states wildlife to the dogs to get one?  No!!!

Now here we are, the anti HR group is making inroads, the PGC is caveing to the legislature, and certain individuals within the PGC are blaming me for thier problems.  Who knows at this point what is happening with the wildlife.

Anyway. I need to step away for a minute to relax....

I know what you are saying and I somewhat agree.

But I also would be one saying some very nasty stuff about "some" so-called hunters who sue the agency, spread lies on radio, and in print and generally try to dismantle the PGC through a plethora of dishonest claims and accusations.

No doubt responsibility for the war that PGC is fighting and the problems they have belongs directly on their shoulders. But those above mentioned hunters did contribute and make it more difficult for them, through legislative pressure that outweighed legislative pressure put on by the pro side.

Current PGC powers inherited a 50 year + history of legislative interference. "Who" could have changed that I don't know, if not the voting public and hunters.

That we are not organized to better support PGC is not our fault nor is it our obligation. It is however, a fact of these times.

I don't know the particulars of your claim of blame. I would not be surprised if it was directed at USP and I would not be upset if it were.

Bowbum,

The portrait that you ask about was painted with a broad brush.  I would hope that this sentiment is in the minority within the PGC. "Hunters" would include you and I both.

Some other tidbits about the proposed changes:

In the Sunday Pittsburgh Tribune Review, a source close to the Democratic majority within the House Game and Fisheries Committee does not see the proposed changes going far enough.  They want these changes statewide along with a cut in antlerless allocations before they will consider a license fee increase.

Also a source reveals that Carl Roe recommended these changes to gather support for a license fee increase against the wishes of his deer biologists.

If the fee increase does not happen, cuts to the deer research programs a staff deer biologists may be cut.

Also in the article, Boop reveals a tough fight ahead in this debate.

It would be a real kick in the arse if these changes pass, without the consent of the biologists, and the legislature still refuses a license fee increase.

All at the expense of us hunters and the states wildlife.

What a shame!!!!    

Tom Boop called me a few days ago and told me he believes there are 19 wmu's that need these changes "now."
There  is no doubt, after talking to him, that this "4 wmu's" is not the eventual goal. The goal is to insert the tip slowy..........

Should this pass it will be turning back the clock on 100 years of progress --- albeit we are still not up with the rest of North America.

Penn, what you expressed is shared by a significant percentage of hunters.
We could argue forever the points but the very basic truth is there have been many, many years if my lifetime when hunting truly sucked --- all  hunting except for some small game opportunites.
There were no turkeys bear or deer to speak of. You didn't fix that and I didn't fix that and USP sure as hell didn't fix it.
Who did?

I have never seen a bigger bunch of embarrassments in my life than those who would sue, and spew lies all over the media --- to get more deer --- and never ever mention a thing about the other 466 species of wildlife. Not to mention the obvious denial of the existing state's hardwood forests that are a valued economic resource and damn well should be.

Most who make accusations of failed management are in denial of the harvest stats and evidence to the contrary.
No program in any state or province is failproof and perfect. It simply works around general parameters with ever-changing spot and regional conditions.

dpms, the only negative comments I've heard about hunters was about hunters who facilitate political intervention.

If we want to change or prevent these things we have to start with being political. Get Ed Staback out of office for starters.

I tend to think you are right about Boops's motives.  The tide is changing for sure.  

Shotgun only hunting for deer is NOT that bad.... I've done it... it will be just another change for hunters to deal with..but of course ... as Penn mentioned... many will whine....
harvesting a deer with a shotgun is more challenging than using a rifle and that in itself will cause many to complain... they want it EASY !!!


We all already know Boop's story.. he's just plain anti PGC.. no matter what and that's why he got the approval of the Governor and HIS committee....

As for Staback, Hanna, Surra, USP and those hunters that are the ones "forcing" the PGC to change....
folks like that have been around for years and years and are a VERY big part of why we needed the AR/HR program in  the first place....

Many folks were calling for decreased harvests (fewer tags and not shooting does) back in the 60s and 70s but the PGC  listened to those that wanted to see lots of deer and could care less about any damamge they were doing .. and we are paying for the "give ins" done by the PGC back then today...

One thing for sure ... Hanna,Surra, and Staback are all up for re-election this year.. I'd love nothing more than for every hunter in Pa that supports the PGC to get out there and vote all those antis OUT OF OFFICE FOR GOOD.. that would show some REAL SUPPORT...

anyone NOT supporting a license increase will NOT get my vote this year... that's a FACT !!  

--Last edited by Dr Trout on 2008-01-23 08:56:29 --

Penn wrote --

Quote :

more posted property has appeared by owners hoping to have deer to harvest for themselves.

Penn stop reading all that USP bull-shit...
it's starting to effect you.....

That statement is Sooooo far from the truth....

the reason for posted land is SLOB hunters and ATVs.... #1 and #2....

I do not know ONE single land pwner around here that posted his or her ground to keep the deer for themselves...

some posted (leased) the ground for extra income...

many posted because of trespassing...

many posted for slob hunters.. trash. cutting down trees and bushes, guys baiting the deer with corn and salt blocks... safety zones violations..property damage from bullets... etc

MANY posted to keep ATVs from trashing their grounds...

NOPE ----- not one land owner I know posted to keep the deer to themseves OR to allow them to breed to get more deer.... many posted and have a crop damage problem at the same time ... but the damage done by deer hunters was even worse...

Again that's the facts as I know them around here....

Go talk to the land owner of the posted ground... if he has not leased them to others you may find him (after getting to know you) more than willing to allow YOU to hunt there ... I have permission from several around here -- one rule -- I HAVE PERMISSION -- not me and some buddies of mine....

This idea of keeping the deer to themselves is just a bunch of bull... I'll wager a hell of alot less than 3-4% have that as the #1 reason the land is posted....

Hunters just do not want to admit that it's members of the same hunting fraternity that are and have caused the problem with posted land....

ONCE AGAIN... it's easier to blame the deer and the PGC....

Penn, you may consider that the right way to manage is for management to listen to other than the professionals from within the agency, in other agencies, from universities and from conservation groups.

Personally, I would rather see an overall policy that has positive opportunities for the majority, especially youth, with some unavoidable negatives to work on fixing.
Control should never be determined by emotion, politics and/or personal greed and wildlife management is not a stagnant thing – it continues to provide surprises and challenges.
Yes, I have seen cases of complaints that can only be described as pure greed.

There will always be areas of “too far” with any facet of a program. Should they try to correct those? Of course, but you are expressing your opinion which may not be parallel to the professional’s opinions.
“Looking for recreation” is hardly a sound argument.
It reflects the same old “PA Deer Commission” approach that they owe us deer to shoot --- regardless of anything to do with 466 species of wildlife and hundreds of species of flora. (no, you didn’t say that but your point-on comment lacked anything other than “recreation”)
As long as we think that way and don’t try to find a workable solution that provides opportunity in balance with preserving the supporting resource --- we all lose.

This proposal is purely political.
I would hope that any grown person can see the danger in surrendering to politcs and would voice strong opposition.
It is wrong!

Shotguns are an entirely different topic.
However, I’ll entertain you on it. I’ve hunted in shotgun only states and I have no problem with it.
You may be right that initially the pressure could shift to rifle areas. That also would include my area. Be that as it may, I think within a couple of years the shotgun areas will produce some very enticing trophies and the tide will turn.
I honestly believe history will support me that it will even-out in very short order.

 

THAT's GREAT.....

Good old Ed doing his thing !!!!

: ) :"

Political it is.  And to think that the deer progams and staff biologists positions may be cut without a fee increase that the HG&F Committee is saying they still might not agree too is truly devastating.

I also agree that the shotgun/rimfire will even out soon.  There will be the last minute rush for slug guns in early fall.

As far as deer hunting in shotgun only areas, I live close to the NY borders that is a shotgun only area.  It doesn't seem to bother anybody there, but I think it has been shotgun only for quite some time.  I have heard of some going to inline muzzleloader for some extra range.  I have a rifled barrel 870 slug gun that is way more accurate out to 75-100 yds than I ever imagined it would be.  How many deer are actually shot past the 100 yd range.

    Personally, it just doen't seem right to hunt deer with a shotgun.   dd

I am not saying that there may not be a few that use the "just for me" reason.. but the majority (I am sure) posted for other reasons and most of those were hunters, ATVs, and tresspassers.


As for the club... they (the club) would have to do what the MAJORITY OF THE MEMBERS wanted... that could have been a very close decision ?????

We did not allow for our corn to be given out until after January 12th THIS year .. not a real popluar decison with many ... but it's what we had to do because of the vote....  
(15 for 13 against)

As for what you read on the internet -  
I learned years ago alot of that has to be "taken with a grain of salt" and not all of it is true

Here are the three most recent postings and the reason--- all within 4 miles of my home.

BUT (luckily)..so far.. has not changed the permission I have to hunt there...

1.. ATVs ran over a fence post and the livestock got loose and the owner was not informed NOR was there any attempt at fixing the fence they pulled down at the time they did it..

2.. Someone shot the another guy's black angus cow and left it and did not report they had shot the cow .. wasted all that meat ...

3.. Someone entered another property cut two cherry trees down  then into 8 foot sections and dragged them out and took them...

I do not buy into the East verus West arguement either...

There is less and less land open to just any old buddy here too and of course we have less deer that we did years ago too...

malls and shopping center jumping up everywhere too.. and Wal-marts and Lowes.. mini malls... etc etc


PLUS look at the harvest figures.. where is the harvest increasin and where is it decreasing( East vs. West WMUs) ??

One of the BEST examples is one of the WMUs that the change will affect.. and when I lived there Pittsburgh was VERY poulated

I believe one change this "season change" will be is that guys like me (up here) and those having a home (there) and camp (up here)in the two different WMUs will have a really good chance at harvesting AN EXTRA doe next year (if passed)

Here's how I got there ---

I can harvest a doe during the first week in 2F...

then go to Pittsburgh (my old home area) for the opener of the doe season there the second week....

To do that now I am hunting does that have been shot at and pressured the first week and as a result is (at this tim NOT worth the gas..time and effort... under the 2 week season...

Some of the farm areas I know have plenty of deer and hunting them on an "opening day" should prove to be well worth the travel and time...


SHOTGUNS FOR DEER --
I'll start another thread (separate) on hunting deer with shotguns later today.. I have about 7 years experience in doing that in Delaware..  

--Last edited by Dr Trout on 2008-01-24 10:42:45 --