Doc--have you ever been part of a consensus group? It's different people with different opinions and varied expertise meeting to discuss an issue and attempting to agree on the best course of action. Usualy no one individual gets their own way but the problem gets solved in a way they can all agree is best. It was used a lot at all levels of business and industry to tackle various problems. It's a way to keep single or small groups of individuals from making decisions harmful to the companies. It also helps to keep all members aiming towards the same goal when they have input in the process. It works just the opposite when those participants feel they are just being used for show and their findings are being ignored. I have been involved in both kinds both as facilitator and participant. They actually are very interesting if you do get the opportunity.

I never look at any issue as far as hunter success. In the NW part of 2G which is where I grew up hunting around Elk County there has always been habitat issues and for years the deer population really ate themselves out of house and home.  During the following years due to lack of quality habitat they were unhealthy and easy to hunt due to lack of habitat.  Once they were harvested they wer not able to rebound and I doubt they ever will rebound to there former levels.  100 years ago much of the St Marys area was logged and some caught fire in a lot of the areas I grew up hunting.  In my life time it really never was in its hay day of deer hunting like my Dad and his buddies talk about they are all in their late 50's early 60's now.  The problem is they all look at it wondering why you don't see deer like you did back then.  Well it is all related to habitat.  

I am all for the idea of more mature forest for the over all balance in the environment.  In time the old growth will eventually allow for the deer herd to have better habitat with more mature producing nut trees and Cherry trees.  Some people need to come to terms that we will never see the deer hunting of the distant past but we will all see a healthier over all forest.  It is a lot different forest than the clear cuts and really i agree it may be a better way to go for our future where wild untouched areas are few and far between.  

--Last edited by Flyfisher on 2009-02-23 13:25:03 --

Well-- I think we will just have to agree to disagree, nothing wrong with that I guess . I'am a believer of mulitiple use of the forest myself. We can never put it back the way it was before man and most of what we need to live comes from it so I say use it but don't abuse it.

as for tourists....

I am not sure what they like to see when driving around in the woods.... sure many love those huge trees in Cook Forest but not sure they would like that old forest everywhere...  and besides if we let all the forest get old and super mature what happens when those old trees die ..where are the replacements coming from...

here in the N/C this is the view from a car window when looking into the "woods" in 90% of the area .. and I have shown this photo to many who think it shows good habitat for deer andf a good place for hunting deer...???????????







now this is better for the deer and I think tourist would love this out their window..

but of course more folks can stay home in the city and see deer in their back yard.. so I'm not sure deer are even a tourist attraction any more ???

 

--Last edited by Dr Trout on 2009-02-23 13:57:53 --

Makes quite a difference when you let a little light in doesn't it. I've been through Cook forest a lot and while some may like it that way it's not for me.

I understand what you are talking about with consensus groups S-10 but I don't want to put much faith in the CACs showing any type of consensus for an entire WMU as big as they are..

I thought the CACs were a great idea but I sort of have back away from that now... and wonder just what do deer hunters think

You can read the Internet and see an about even split...too many..too few... just right

but when hunters are given a chance to REALLY voice their opinions where they may actually count what do you get...


out of 30,000+ deer hunters in 1B (doe tags..all sold) only 35 took the time to ask for and receive the form to fill out so they could have been heard at the CAC meetings...

so in 1B there must not really be too many upset hunters right ????

maybe just those 35 who helped sway the results of the entire CAC meeting in 1B ????

Quote :

Makes quite a difference when you let a little light in doesn't it.

FINALLY we agree on something

but let's change that ---

fewer deer eating the new growth also helps make it look like this....


 

--Last edited by Dr Trout on 2009-02-23 14:21:20 --

Nice photos doc.  That last photo shows a lot of how deer really do have an effect on the habitat and why the populations need to be kept in check.  i am assuming that is one of the fenced in areas.

Actually flyfish that shows what happens when you don't have old growth forest shading out the ground. Seedlings need sun to grow, Oak and Cherry need at least filtered sunlight to even have a chance regardless of the deer. Course you don't need a deer standing there waiting for it to peek out of the ground either. Ferns will grow in old growth , just look around Cooks Forest

And the no browsing for deer!! look outside the fences once.

You look--where is the sun to promote the growth. You won't find anything growing in the dirt under your porch either.

Ran outside for a minute... these show the difference too...

the first one is standing on the property line and looking across what we call the "flats" actually SGL#54.. the tress are huge maples and cherries.. no Oak they were all destroyed in the 1800s by the sawmill located a mile away back then... very little sun light in the spring and summer..


Now if I turn around and look back on my property where I sold some of those huge cherries and maples look at the difference and the place is just packed full of blackberry bushes in the spring and summer that do not show up in this photo.. very few ferns... but I have found may apples, trillium, trout lillies, blackberries, tea berries... other wildflowers yet to be IDed ...NONE  of those are growing on the "flats" ...have not been any there since I started coming here in 1960s...  my "backyard" was the exact same way until I sold trees off and opened it up.........

 

--Last edited by Dr Trout on 2009-02-23 15:13:19 --

Yep--I have the same thing on my property, a section of oaks I should have cut 20 years ago that is almost barren underneath and a small section that I clear cut that is a jungle including a bunch of 2'-4' Oaks that the DCNR can't seem to be able to grow. And just by chance that is near some apple trees that are a hot spot for hunting those pesky deer. Actually, I cut the area because the apple trees were getting shaded out and were dying.

The "inside the fence" was always a little bias.. it showed what it would be like with ZERO deer...  but it did allow for folks that were not scientist , foresters, or biologists to see with their own eyes the difference.. BUT OF COURSE .. there are still those that do not believe..

My favorite are the acid rain folks.. I love it when Dick or John say well how do we keep that same acid rain that's falling outside the fence from falling inside the fence ???

that usually shuts them up for the rest of the day

What is really great to see is what is happening OUTSIDE the fences in the past 3 years with fewer deer browsing the areas as a whole...

Those species inside are now growing outside.

Here's an example from my clear creek favorite...

notice the fence between the two big trees....

the stuff growing inside the fence (background) as you can see is larger and there is more of it.. but just looks what was about a year behind and its outside the fence.. notice all the stump sprouts....

and yes outside .. no fence.. just fewer deer....  BUT there are deer...  I'll let out a secret some of Buff's photos of deer were in this area.....



P.S.. those photos are from 06.. it's even better there now .. I just did not get any recent photos.. I want to update the headwaters webpage this summer though...  

--Last edited by Dr Trout on 2009-02-23 15:31:22 --

If DCNR would plant zillions of apple trees then some oaks would grow if given a choice despite the deer... acorns or apples ...guess which the deer are going to eat first .. also between oak buds in the spring or apple buds and blossoms... yep same preference APPLES..... that does save some of your Oaks S-10...

Oh  ---

keep in mind also when talking about the USP and habitat

they claim deer destroy trees by climbing them and destroying the bark with their hooves..

hows that for getting it back to the USP    

--Last edited by Dr Trout on 2009-02-23 15:39:14 --

they claim deer destroy trees by climbing them and destroying the bark with their hooves..

hows that for getting it back to the USP

shows there are idiots in every organization

Do you know why they don't use the cheaper kernel corn when feeding/baiting turkeys? Because a biologist said they will choke on it.  

S-10,

I can see that you have your bias and I have mine. I think that if you were to go back and look at those CAC reports in detail and not just the summary aspects you might just see a different perspective.

With that I am going to use one of your lines and say that we are just going to have to agree to disagree.

And by the way I have faciliated and participated in a few process review teams. Which did you do first facilitate or participate? For me I participated then facilitated - it was payback to see just how much of a loggerhead I was at times.

Doc,

What year was that pic with all the people in it? I think I see the back of my head in there.

I see they are form 2006 and yep thats me..  

--Last edited by Observer on 2009-02-23 15:59:04 --

you must be one of the two guys on the right  prnc and I are standing behind the camera !!!!

And I am sure the guy with the green UBP shirt is Mike Faust...
then a lady (not you)

and then "the guy" with the GLASSES...



PLEASE say that ain't you !!!!  

--Last edited by Dr Trout on 2009-02-23 16:07:42 --