Doc,

Please put my name at the top of your "whiners and complainers" list. I've lived in Jefferson County all my 60+ years and I couldn't disagree more with the following statement you made..."The deer numbers are still GREAT HERE IN JEFFERSON COUNTY..plain and simple...."

Nothing could be farther from reality. I'm now retired and have been for the last 3 seasons. I hunt both WMUs that are in Jefferson Co. I've went from killing decent bucks every archery season to having not killed one in the past 3 seasons. Most days I don't see a deer.

In this past rifle season I hunted 9 of the 12 days. There were 4 days I didn't see one lousy deer. I had a DMAP tag, a tag for 2F, and a tag for 2D, plus my regular buck tag. I considered myself extremely lucky to get a doe in the early ML season.

Now to get to the topic of this thread. Let's keep in mind the most important word used in the "Report"....that word is "ESTIMATED". In fact I think they should have used the word "GUESS-TAMATE". As far as I'm concerned this report is nothing other than self serving to the PGC. If you read the report closely it said the "estimate" included approx 125,000 usuable report cards and another approx 25,000 actual examined deer. I'm not sure what the PGC considers a "usable" report card.  Maybe you can explain that as the "Report" didn't give any details.

IMHO is this report flawed, misleading, inaccurate, and most likely over "ESTIMATES" the actual kill by at least 40%. I use that 40% figure based on my friends, hunting club members, and relatives that normally harvest deer, but did not this past season.

Here's my final thought....I think the report mentions something about button bucks and doe fawns making up 24-25% of the anterless deer harvested. Now....before one fawn is born, or the survival rate of this years fawns are known the PGC in it's April meeting is to set doe license allocations. That just does not make any sense at all. What's the rush? Why not wait until later in the year when some additional data could be used to set doe allocations?

I think it goes without saying I'm not a PGC fan. I wish they were GONE. I'm against any license fee increase and am in the process of emailing everyone on the Fish and Game Committee to state my objections. My Dad keeps telling me they are a "Necessary Evil" I agree with half that statement....they are EVIL.

Thanks for reading,
Nissan

Here's the way I see it.. we have to agree to dis-agree...

I'm 63 and have hunted the exact same basic 6 square miles since 1958 and harvested a deer each year in Pa. except for the successful years in Delaware with the USAF..

I harvest deer in this area yearly
and l still see deer today.. 9 on the trip for gas this am to Brockway all on SGL#54... I saw 19 on the way home from work yesterday (3.5 miles) at 6:15pm all on open to hunting ground...

So I can only say you must be using areas that have "no deer" and I'm living and hunting in areas that do have deer....


The PGC used about 150,000 KNOWN deer harvests to do their "figuring"... PLUS they have those figures for the past 20 years...

isn't it amazing they use that many "samples" and some complain or do not believe the results and they (PGC) does not hesitate when they say harvest estimates  

We should be so lucky that drug companies would have to use that many "samples" and supporting figures before they tell us a drug is safe.. check out how many they use... for a sample... you'd be AMAZED...

You did not quite get the yearling figures right...

yearling bucks were 56%

BBs and does made up another 44% of the antlerless harvest..

so just about half what we shot were re-cruited after the deer season of 2006...

56% of bucks were yearlings
44% of the antlerless were also yearlings

So they know that that many survived the preceeding summer... so that would be a good basis on how many will survive this summer.. and give a good example of how many need to be shot the this fall to keep the herd at that level.

And you have to figure about 1 in 3 get a doe so they have to issue 3 times the number they wanted shot (i.e.)If you need 1,000 shot better issued 3,000 tags to get that done..

As for doing it in April... give me a time you think they could do it better  ???

enough for now...  

--Last edited by Dr Trout on 2008-04-07 19:29:48 --

Quote :

Nissan wroteWhat's the rush? Why not wait until later in the year when some additional data could be used to set doe allocations? I think it goes without saying I'm not a PGC fan. I wish they were GONE. I'm against any license fee increase and am in the process of emailing everyone on the Fish and Game Committee to state my objections. My Dad keeps telling me they are a "Necessary Evil" I agree with half that statement....they are EVIL. Thanks for reading, Nissan

When do you propose that we set allocations?

Also, you are not a PGC fan because you don't see any deer.  Is that the only reason.  How do you feel they are doing on bear, turkeys, fishers etc........

They do have a tremendous responsibility on a limited budget as it is now.  I am generally a supporter but I have some concerns presently just to be fair..

dpms,

I would have replied sooner, but I'm having some problems with getting Doc's Message board. It's been real slow the last few times I've tried to connect. I'm have a high speed connection to the web, so I don't know what is going on.

Personally I feel the PGC should wait until at least mid summer (July) to set doe allocations. By doing it in April they have no evidence or data about fawn population.

I have a very good friend that is now a retired WCO. He and I often discuss the PGC. He tells me that the PGC gets its data about the up coming fawn crop by checking on road killed does. He claims they used to do this in Jan & Feb. By then they can even determine the sex of the unborn fawns.

Let's just assume that this method is a valid way of determining how many fawns will be born. It tells them absolutely nothing about the survival rate...and IMHO, survival rate should be the most important piece of data.

Now for the Bear, Turkey, and Fisher question. Maybe you tell me what the PGC has done for the bear and turkeys. All I think they have done is to find another source of income. We used to be able to hunt bear with just our regular license....now you pay extra to hunt bears. As far as the turkey is concerned I think the NWTF has done far more than the PGC. Again the PGC has found another source of income (2nd spring gobbler tag)

Fisher....I hear the PGC is trying to reintroduce fishers in PA by stocking them. I think they are still protected and have to be released if caught by mistake in a trap. Any wildlife I see is a plus and so I'm going to take a wait and see position on the fisher.

The PGC has continuously distance itself from the coyotes. My friend will neither confirm nor absolutely deny the PGC was involved. When our local WCO was asked about the PGC and coyotes, at a Sportsmans Club Meeting, he avoided a direct answer, by saying he had heard that rumor.

I will agree to some extent that the PGC has a big task in managing PA wildlife, but they must remember who pays their bills. They have totally forgotten that. Hunter population continues to decrease. I think we need some MAJOR changes if not an entire new system. Right now our system is broken. Proof of that is evident right here on this board. I never have seen so much disagreement and infighting as we have going on presently.

What's your feeling on the USP organization?

Nissan

Nissan,

Thanks for the reply.  

As for allocations being set in July.  What data would they use then to determine allocations? I would assume, field observations of does with fawns and doing some kind of count to determine fawn survival and populations estimates.  Am I right in thinking that is your suggestion?

As for what the PGC has done for bear and turkey.  They have managed these animals based on habitat, human conflict and health just as the deer using seasons and bag limits to make adjustments as needed to maximize hunter satisfaction without compromising the three above criteria.  In doing so, Pa. has national recognition for it's bear and turkey hunting.

Even though deer numbers are not what they used to be, the PGC has begun to manage them in a responsible manner that still produces one of the largest kills in the nation.  Hunter satisfaction is down because of the lower numbers overall than what many were used to.  With time, the Pa. deer program should be recognized in the same way as it's bear and turkey programs if the PGC remains steadfast in it's committment to continue it's current program and hunter staisfaction will begin to increase again as deer number slowly rise.  

I do have concerns that political forces are beginning to compromise the program however and my support has begun to waiver.

Fishers are just an example of a success story of how well the PGC does with the multitude of species it is responsible for.  I hear there is consideration for a short season for them in the works.  Bobcats are a success as well with numbers rebounding enough for rather liberal seasons.  Elk numbers have never been higher and many out of staters apply for permits every year.

There is alot more to the equation than lower deer numbers.  Lower deer numbers benefit many things.  I agree that deer are what brings in the hunters and the money but short term sacrifice for future benefits will greatly outweigh the current shortcomings.

Coyotes...I won't go there.  

dpms,

Yes, you are correct with your assumption of field observations as one method of gathering data about fawn survival. It may not be perfect in all aspects, but at least you have something to base doe allocations on. What are they using when they allocate licenses in April? I do not know if the PGC is  still using data collected on road kill does in Jan / Feb....do you know?

In your defense of the PGC with respect to bears and turkeys it's the same old broken record we have heard for the past 6-7 years about deer.
(1) Deer Health
(2) Habitat
(3) Human conflicts

I'll give you "Human Conflicts" for the very obvious reason....less deer... less human conflict, but let's take a look at the other two.

Deer Health...This is completing misleading. The PGC would have you believe that since it's current DMP has been in affect that deer are healthier. That's just plain BULL****. We have more deer dieing with and infected with CWD and what is commonly known as "Blue Tongue" than ever. I've heard about dozens if not hundreds of deer being found dead from both this past summer. 10 years ago it was a real rarity to hear about deer dieing. There was hardly a week went by this past summer that you didn't hear something on the news about people finding dead deer.

I've read where a deers normal life span (where not hunted or in captivity) is about 6-8 years. Assuming that info to be correct we should now have almost a complete new generation of (healthy) deer that has come about since the current DMP. Our deer are not bit more healthy now than they were before HR.

Habitat...this one really gets me excited. I don't believe for one second that deer were destroying the habitat. The PGC has tried to show deer damage by "Cherry Picking" areas by placing fencing. You would see one photo within the fence and one that was supposedly just outside the fence. I went to one of these areas in northern Jefferson Co to see for myself.

They did not tell you the entire story. The fence was placed around an area that was recently timbered...thus allowing sunlight to reach the forest floor. The area showed signs of being limed. Out side the fence there was still a mature forest. I examined the area outside the fence for deer sign. I found very little if any. IMHO this was NOT a fair evaluation.

The PGC has a very good "Human Relations" group. They use words like "Tweaking, refining, improving, and slight modifications" in a effort to make you think they have an almost perfect program and that with a "tweak" here and there it will be perfect. Please don't be fooled by some tricky deceptive language. They also talk about CACs.....did you  ever try to get on one of these committees? They may let you on, but not me. I've volunteered for both CAC's and the program where they would attach a GPS tracking device to show how much and where I hunted. Needless to say I wasn't chosen.....wonder why? Again they want to "Cherry Pick" so they can only get the info that want. It reminds me of someone that shoots at a blank sheet of white paper and then goes and draws a bullseye around his bullet hole and claims to have hit it. You sure can't dispute that his hole is in the center of his circle.

I really am wondering why you chose not to "Go There" on coyotes. I have my suspicions.

Have a good day
Nissan
 

 Wow so much...  let's see....


Nissan...

Just where did you go in Jefferson County to observe the deer fences you are refering to and how did YOU determine it had been limed...

I go on the SGL#44 tour every year and I could show you that what you are saying is NOT true for those fenced areas.

If you're talking Clear Creek State Forest.. you better have a "source" at DCNR..
every fenced area has something different about it and it has a different purpose...  

NO ONE "Cherry Picking" anything...

Yes -- they are still checking road killed does in the spring and they have an on-going fawn survival study and 20+ years of records

Older bucks --

Go to any taxidermist and ask about the age class of the bucks they are starting to see...

Cessna had his biggest buck EVER this past year.. and is seeing older bucks on average than in the past since 2003..

I just do not know who to quote or what to post to show you you are getting and believinig alot of BAD information...

I think you would be surprised .. this board is NOT as divided as you may think...

On the subject of the USP.....

Bunch of cry babies that mis-use figures and facts to try to get folks on "their side".. They are DEFINETELY not speaking for the MAJORITY of hunters in Pa...

Remember this is the group that says we only have 50,000 deer left in the state..

Plus they do not even take the time to show up at an open house.. tour.. seminar.. ETC...

FACTS presented and seeing with one's own eyes at those show they are FAR from being accurate in their statements...

What CACs did you try to get on ???

The ones for 2F and 2G will not even be started until 2009 ????????

And I sure hope I get on the one for 2F....

enough for now

As for plenty of deer around here....

check out steelhead's posts in the sharing photos section under NO DEER...

He saw plenty on March 14th while at camp....

and here's what he said about 1st day of rifel last year in the woods behind my place  SGL#54... remember it was bad weather

quote===
yeah, i saw 2 buck first thing in the morning last year, spike and 4 pt, 2 each side. saw about 10 doe too. if you would have been in your spot last year doc you would have gotten 1 of those doe.    same as always they went into those hemlocks ====

Quote :

Nissan wrote I'll give you "Human Conflicts" for the very obvious reason....less deer... less human conflict, but let's take a look at the other two. We have more deer dieing with and infected with CWD and what is commonly known as "Blue Tongue" than ever. I've heard about dozens if not hundreds of deer being found dead from both this past summer. 10 years ago it was a real rarity to hear about deer dieing. There was hardly a week went by this past summer that you didn't hear something on the news about people finding dead deer. Our deer are not bit more healthy now than they were before HR. They did not tell you the entire story. The fence was placed around an area that was recently timbered...thus allowing sunlight to reach the forest floor. The area showed signs of being limed. Out side the fence there was still a mature forest. I examined the area outside the fence for deer sign. I found very little if any. IMHO this was NOT a fair evaluation. They also talk about CACs.....did you  ever try to get on one of these committees? They may let you on, but not me. I've volunteered for both CAC's and the program where they would attach a GPS tracking device to show how much and where I hunted. Needless to say I wasn't chosen.....wonder why? I really am wondering why you chose not to "Go There" on coyotes. I have my suspicions. Have a good day Nissan

CWD is a very rare disease in these parts.  The PGC tests for every year but it has not reared it ugly head yet.  EHD(blue tongue disease), on the other hand, did rear it's ugly head 5 years ago and again last year with significant consequences.  We had about a  75% kill on one of the properties we hunt in Washington county.  Many areas were wiped out.  I know first hand what EHD is capable of.

With that being said, EHD is relatively new to this state but it's appearance had nothing to do with deer health.  The disease is slowly migrating northward with climate change and our deer are in it's path.  With time, our deer will develop some immunity to it as the deer down south have where it is common.

As to deer health, some new data is being compiled that shows the breeding window is beginning to shrink since AR/HR was implemented.  That is a direct coorelation to improved deer health as having most of the available does breed during thier first estrous cycle results in a short birthing window in the spring which overwhelms predators and allows the fawns to reach desired size by the onset of winter stress.

I cannot speak to fencing as I have never seen it but I can tell you that in Greene and Washington counties, areas exist with significant browse lines.  A sign that there is still too many deer for the available habitat. Browse lines are an obvious sign of distressed habitat and a overabundance of deer.  On a recent camping trip to Potter/Cameron county I saw few deer but still and obvious browse line from years past.

CAC are a good thing and I did participate in a survey for the CAC for WMU 2A.  My participation was from the conservationist sub-committeee within the CAC.  The data is being gathered and will be presented to the BOC.  I answered the questions honestly and was not in any way persuaded in one direction or the other. I do not know why you were not chosen but I believe it is a good program.

Coyotes being stocked by the PGC? I won't go there because it doesn't matter.  They are here to stay and we have to deal with them. I do know there numbers increased in direct coorelation to the deer herd booming in this state in the late 80's.  Now that the herd is decreasing, thier impact is greater.  Neighboring states have a healthy population too and coyotes do like to walk around a little.  

Nissan said "I went to one of these areas in northern Jefferson Co to see for myself.
They did not tell you the entire story. The fence was placed around an area that was recently timbered...thus allowing sunlight to reach the forest floor. The area showed signs of being limed."

Can you tell me where the fence is that you saw that was limed?
I don't know of any exclosures there that were limed.

Listen to what Doc says, he knows allot about that area.

well, in my travels for work up and down i-79 between pittsburgh and erie, once the snow melted, i counted, no lie, 35 dead deer along the way. these are the ones i could see in the median, along the sides of the road. some areas were more condensed than others with the amount of carcasses. me and my buddies were talking and this is the most dead deer we ever recall seeing. doesn't really have anything to do with this topic but i find the comments of these people saying 50,000 left to be hilarious.

look, if i wanted to kill a deer i would go to my family camp in warren county. more deer there than you can imagine. and the antler restriction is working, at least there. you should see the size of the racks they are getting. my cousins little boy got his first deer this year 1st year of hunting, a 10 pt. i could also kill one at my wifes family's camp in munderf if i chose to get a doe tag i would have been done hunting last year at 8:30 a.m. but i chose not to. i enjoy going to camp, hunting and hanging out with family and of course doc.  

you know, the best 5-10 minutes of hunting i had was last season. i sat there and watched a spike and a nice 4 pointer, 2 on each side, for 5-10 minutes. they didn't know i was there. i watched their habits, watched them eat/graze and thought to myself, i wonder what these 2 boogers are gonna look like next year? that was truly enjoyable and i didn't care that i couldn't shoot either of them. would i have shot a legal buck? sure. i didn't see as many deer this past year as i have in years past but it was also pouring rain and 40 plus degrees. deer weren't moving. i guess that means no deer are left? no there are plenty where we hunt.

as far as fenced in areas, nissan, take a drive along 949 past where you can turn to head toward siegel/belltown. there is an area on the left before you get to elk county that was fenced in that now has a ton of growth in it. i remember when the fence was first put up you could see back in there for what seemed like miles. this proved to me that this works.

steelhead...

Have you noticed that the re-generation on that fenced area was so GREAT.. they have already taken down the fence  

yeah i think i noticed that last year. that's 1 of the more amazing ones i have seen. going 949 over toward clear creek is starting to get there too. the best part, last year during rifle season, we were going to get water and someone had gotten a deer in the one going toward ridgway. i'll admit, i was skepitcal of their timbering and doing this but this has made me a believer. i recently saw another one up near kane pa that they were taking the fence down and it was amazing. as long as they take the time to do what they have done, planting new trees in some of them,  i think it's a great idea.  

--Last edited by steelhead on 2008-04-10 10:21:54 --

An important thing to remember is that the fences show the effects of a ZERO deer population.

They (deer) are not supposed to be in them... so deer inpact is zero on the re-growth.

The natural way would not show such improvements so rapidly..

Deer would browse much of the new growth.

But with fewer deer the impact is not as great

And as many are seeing -- there is the start of re-growth outside the fences and in areas where there have never been fences...

fewer deer equals better re-growth of saplings and small plants.

Which equals better habitat = which equals better re-cruitement =

which equals more deer that are still in-balance with the new haibtat =

which means seeing more deer and possibly harvesting more deer...  

--Last edited by Dr Trout on 2008-04-10 11:02:04 --

Doc.  I have a project for you to watch.  All the land by empire ridge road that was just logged last year would be a good spot to keep an eye on.  I doubt if they will fence that.  
  By the way, my son Brian is moving back to the camp next wee.  He got a job over at Parker Dam.